Catholic World News News Feature
Living with Islam February 01, 2002
By Fides News Service
Father Samir Khalil Samir, SJ, was born in Cairo in 1938. He studied in France and has taught at the Pontifical Oriental Institute in Rome for over 25 years. For seven years he lived and taught in Egypt and was involved in social development and adult education. Today, while teaching in Rome, he spends most of his time in Beirut, where he is part of a Muslim-Christian teaching program, consisting of lessons given jointly by a team consisting of one Christian and one Muslim teacher, to students of both religions.
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What difficulties do Christians living among Muslims encounter, and why do they suffer discrimination?
Father Samir Khalil Samir: I can speak from my experience in Egypt and Lebanon, where I live at present. The first difficulty is that in Islam religion and politics are one, and they cannot be separated. This leads to the idea of an Islamic state which applies in detail the Shari'a Law, the civil law based on the Qu'ran and the sayings and deeds of the Prophet and Muslim traditions of the first four centuries.
This referring back to past times, a past culture--a past context in which pluralism was not a principle but merely a fact--reveals Islam's great difficulty in dealing with modernity.
The second difficulty is that Islam is omnipresent in daily life. In Egypt wherever you go, you hear the Qu'ran being sung and preached over the radio: on a bus, in a taxi, as you walk along the street. News and films on television are interrupted five times a day for the Muslim prayer. Children being instructed in Islam learn the Qu'ran by heart (with the explanation that it is a good basis for learning the language). The morning session at school, as in the army, begins with a 10-minute meeting to listen to an Islamic comment on the world situation or a passage of Islamic history. All subjects are taught with references to the religion--history especially.
Islam also effects customs: if two young people are seen walking in a dignified manner hand in hand, it is the end of the world. Christians wearing a cross and chain around their neck risk having it ripped off by fundamentalists. Nowadays this happens less often, but only because Christians take more care to avoid provoking Muslims. Moreover university examinations are almost always at Easter or Christmas. Christians are allowed to observe these holidays, but because of the exams they cannot leave the college.
So Islam is omnipresent, and this is its power. Islam is religion, society, and politics. It penetrates to the bone. Under the influence of Saudi Arabia--which controls the distribution of films in the Arab world--even cinema is increasingly Islamic. Film directors are given precise instructions: women must be seen only wearing veils; the muezzin must be heard several times. Newspapers always include one or more pages of Islamic teaching. This situation makes it difficult for Christians even to breathe.
In itself this linking of religion, society, and culture is not an evil.
Samir: No but this way of life is suffocating, it leaves no space.
Muslims say: "Why do you complain? We are the majority. In democratic countries the majority makes the decisions." But a political majority is one thing, a religious majority is another. The political majority is contingent; it can change from one election to the next; it is connected with persons. But religions are more permanent; they are not easily changed. This makes the Islamic style of life oppressive.
The problem is that this oppressive style is not codified by laws. This means that Westerners sometimes say to oriental Christians: "Why do you complain. The laws are not oppressive!"
Another serious problem, not written in constitutions, is job discrimination, which has existed for decades. Christians are barred from working in certain fields--such as gynecology for example. In the past gynecologists were almost always Christian doctors. Now this has changed and today, with their "impure" hands, Christians are not allowed to examine women, who are mostly Muslims. In the army a Christian can only reach a certain rank. If he advances in his career, even if he is only 40 years old, they prefer to send him home with a pension rather than promote him.
The religion of people in search of work is revealed by their names and for a Christian the answer is "Sorry no work", but along comes the next applicant, a Muslim, and he is hired.
And what about freedom to change one's religion?
Samir: This is absolutely forbidden in Islam. Traditional Islamic teaching punishes apostasy with the death penalty--often commuted to life imprisonment. Even in liberal countries such as Lebanon, Muslims may not give up their religion. In Lebanon if a Muslim women marries a Christian she must remain a Muslim. If a Christian woman marries a Muslim, the Qu'ranic law allows the wife to remain a Christian, although as such she loses her inheritance rights. Moreover any children born of the marriage, even if they are baptized, are officially Muslims.
Islam would appear to be a totalistic religion
Samir: Islam is a system of one-way assimilation: you can join but you cannot leave.
In Egypt, Christians--who make up at least 10 percent of the population--who want to build a church have to apply to the president for a variety of permits, which can be obtained only with great difficulty. And yet Christians make no requests to the state for economic assistance, or for land (unlike the Muslims in Europe). In the end most churches are built thanks to loopholes in the laws, supported by individuals, using plots at some distance from the city.
Is the war in Afghanistan creating more problems for Christians? And what could be the outcome or that war?
Samir: I think the war is a mistake. I will not enter into politics but if the purpose of the war is to strike at terrorism, it is producing the opposite effect, and encouraging even more terrorism. Millions of Muslims who used not to support Bin Laden, now feel bound to side with his terrorism. And even if the allies do capture the terrorists in Afghanistan, that same day dozens of new terrorist groups will appear. This war serves at the most, as revenge, as retaliation, but it will not eliminate terrorism.
Is Osama bin Laden an authentic representative of Islam?
Samir: Striking blindly at anyone is not Islamic. But the principles evoked by bin Laden resound loudly in the Islamic world. They recall Islam's main principles, correctly taught.
It should be noted that in fact the terrorism is not foreign to Islam, as people often say in an effort to be "nice." Islamic terrorism--or better Islamic violence--is rooted in the Qu'ran and the Sunna, that is, the practices of the Prophet. Many Qu'ran passages encourage violence; I have found at least 75. The non-violent passages are much less numerous and they belong to the earliest period. For Islam, a principle of interpretation is that new revelations cancel earlier ones.
In this way anyone promoting an Islamic regime based on the Qu'ran and the Sharia law is within that law. War, under conditions laid down in the Qu'ran, is a duty for every Muslim. Mohammed, in the last ten years of his life in Medina, led about 19 wars: a customary practice. This is why it is mistaken to say that in the Qu'ran there is no war, only peace. There is a principle of warfare, which has its rules (like in the ancient Roman law). But when God's rights must be defended, or Islam is attacked, or rebellion threatens, war is an obligation. All this renders the Islamic tradition highly ambiguous. And this ambiguity needs to be admitted and addressed.
Similarly, the problem of non-believers must be addressed. The Qu'ran allows space for non-Muslims (Christians and Jews), but not for non-believers, atheists, or animists. Instead of entering clear dialogue on these matters, people have a tendency to hide from them. Some say "Islam is only violence;" this is not true. Others say "Islam means tolerance and peace;" but this is not true, either.
What sort of following is there for liberal Islam?
Samir: I think that the majority of Muslims are moderates. In Arab Islam--which is most familiar to me--the majority of Muslims desire to live in peace with everyone, with freedom to practice one's respective religion. The trouble is that some insist, in keeping with tradition, on an Islamic regime, with a government that guarantees Islamic religious practices.
Are there economic and political reasons for this division between moderate and fundamentalist Muslims?
Samir: Fundamentalists demand that Muslim laws be applied to the letter, as they were conceived by Mohammed. This demand has grounds. But the majority of Muslims are oriented towards a less rigid relation between politics and religion.
Most Muslim countries have laws inspired by the West, modified on points incompatible with Islam. For fundamentalists the ideal is the period of Mohammed and the four Caliphs. But a radical application of Islam has never existed. The Qu'ran says that anyone who does not believe in God has no choice: he must believe in Islam or be put to death. But this has never been put into practice.
Whenever Islam has met other religions--Zoroastrianism in Persia, Hinduism in India--it did not kill them all, it found a way out, making laws (fatwa) which said that these believers were similar to Christians or Jews.
In any case, beside moderate Islam there exists also a non-moderate Islam which mixes religion and politics. This fundamentalist Islam wants at all costs to take power. Its plan is first of all to overthrow certain Muslim regimes that are considered "traitors"--namely those supported by the West.
If we ask: "Where are the Islamic regimes dreamed of by fundamentalists? In Saudi Arabia?" They say, "No, this is the worst regime, because it has betrayed the principles of Mohammed." Then is it in Iran? No, because in Iran they say there is a pre-Islamic, pagan culture which invalidates everything. This means that the fundamentalist ideal is a non-existent utopia--which renders coexistence impossible.
In European countries--Italy for example--the number of Muslims continues to rise and the continuation of peaceful coexistence is often at risk.
Samir: Here in Europe a Muslim may practice his religion without difficulty. Those who say there are problems (and most of these are over-zealous converted Europeans) have a precise goal: to spread Islam by putting other religions in an awkward situation. It is absurd to expect that school classes should be interrupted for a Muslim prayer. This does not happen in any Muslim country. In Egypt, for example, there are pauses, or breaks, during which prayers can be said, although not perhaps at the precise time.
The state cannot be expected to change rules of life and work: it is not the state's duty to guarantee the practice of any religion. Muslim jurists have the power to issue fatwa for prayers to be made outside the established hours. Taking advantage of people's ignorance, in Europe Muslims make increasing claims. Consequently the host countries begin to lose patience and to react. In Europe people who at first were tolerant are now becoming racist. This happens when they see that Muslims are the only group that makes so many demands.
For example, Muslims amount to about 30-35 percent of all immigrants in Italy. The other groups--Filipinos, Sri Lankans, Peruvians--do not ask for anything on behalf of their religion; they simply get on with their life. Only the Muslims make claims. And why? Only because according to their mentality, religion and politics are one and the same thing. A Filipino who comes to work and live in Italy does not demand a Filipino church. Copts--who fast at least 200 days in the year, without eating or drinking--have never requested special treatment in any host country: fasting is something personal. But for Islam it is a matter of politics and therefore of power. This attitude leads almost inevitably to conflict.
With the danger of polarization between Christianity and Islam, what can Christians do? What is their mission?
Samir: First, to avoid acting on impulse. In Italy there are about 600,000 Muslims. They have not become bad people since September 11. We must continue to live in peaceful coexistence, on the condition that Europeans are convinced of their own identity--of their principles regarding the human person, human rights, equality of men and women, distinction between religion and politics. These principles have been adopted in the West thanks to Jewish-Christian tradition, but they are valid for everyone. Compromising on any of them is negative because it also blocks the development of Islam. Most Muslims are in favor of human rights, respect for the person, distinction between powers, freedom to make individual choices and decisions. Unfortunately the loss of identity in the West is also harmful for Muslims, since it makes them insecure.
Christians have a specific task, a mission. Muslims today want modernity but they are also afraid of it. Fundamentalists acquire modern technology but refuse the modern mentality, which they see as atheistic, anti-religious (and in some ways it is). Our mission as Christians is to show that modernity is compatible with the faith. It is possible to be both modern and a believer. This will be a Christian way of life that is acceptable to Muslims, both as individuals and as communities.
Another task for Christians is to show and live the Gospel values, which are valid for all humanity--not proselytizing, but not hiding any aspect of these values. Christian joy of life and Christian solidarity do not come from the West; they come from the Gospel. This is what the Muslims expect of us.
A Muslim, even the most moderate, is always a believer. When a Muslim comes to Europe he expects to find other believers and he is shocked not to find them--or not to see them. The Muslim wants to meet the West not only in its technology and its food, but also at the level of religion.
For example, if the Caritas association in caring for Muslim immigrants were to organize only distribution of food without revealing the source of this generosity and desire to serve, something essential would be lacking. If this were the case, even offering food and hospitality would be a counter-witness. Those who come to Caritas centers or to the Sisters of Mother Teresa, for example, must be able to encounter the loving heart from which all this generosity flows. If what takes first place is the organization, then Muslims can easily say: "They are richer than us: they are only returning what they stole from us in colonial times."
Are there any policies that can promote Muslim-Christian coexistence?
Samir: Yes, particularly when Muslims first arrive in European countries. It is important not just to meet Europe's need for workers; the rules of European coexistence must also be explained to Muslims. States must have infrastructures capable of dealing with thousands of immigrants in Europe and in the country of departures.
A multicultural situation is not where people arrive and struggle to survive with precarious means. This only builds ghettos, not coexistence. True multi-culturalism consists in a dominant culture, onto which other cultures are hinged and with which they interact so that one and all are enriched. It is like polyphonic music: a main melody with which other voices harmonize. The host country is obliged to make its own basic culture clear.
At the moment, in Italy, there is discussion about crucifixes displayed in school classrooms. One teacher even removed a crucifix "out of respect" for a Muslim pupil. But this is violence. The crucifix is most important to Italian culture. If I feel oppressed, I have problems with my identity, not with the crucifix. At Christmas in schools, again "out of respect", any reference to the birth of Jesus Christ is avoided--whereas the Ramadan Muslim fast and feast is fully explained. This all goes to show that in Europe--Italy especially--there is a crisis of identity. There are even some people who use Islam to take revenge on the Christian culture.
[AUTHOR ID} This interview was originally published by the Fides News Service--an arm of the Vatican Congregation for Evangelization--on November 2001.
