the liturgy Catholics want

By Diogenes (articles ) | Nov 11, 2006

Over on the very useful New Liturgical Movement blog, Jeffrey Tucker has a perceptive comment on the French poll that showed overwhelming support for a Latin Mass with Gregorian chant, but not nearly so much support for the Tridentine rite.

At first that looks like a contradiction. But Tucker offers an explanation:

What the poll reveals is that people would be happy with precisely what the Church is asking us to do, namely give chant primacy of place and elevate the role of Latin.

He may be wrong. But I think not. Tucker's argument is persuasive.


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  • Posted by: - Nov. 16, 2006 5:33 PM ET USA

    In a conversation on the Novus Ordo a old Jesuit friend of mine remarked that the form in common use today is not what was approved by the Council. The 1969 version is the most reliable form to follow. That form has Latin and chant liberally throughout. The use of both species at Communion was not to become the rule, but rather used on special occasions. Why so little discussion on that point?

  • Posted by: Deacon Bart - Nov. 13, 2006 4:03 PM ET USA

    I am privileged to assist at a Latin N.O. Mass every Sunday. Most visitors to Annunciation don't know the difference between the 8AM Tridentine and the 11AM Latin N.O. As a deacon I would have no role in a "low" Tri. Mass so I really appreciate the Latin N.O. with the old hymns and the entrance antiphon chanted in English. We also use our communion rails and incense, no extraordary mininsters of communion, no alter girls, etc. Don't need Tridentine for a devout Mass-all you need is a holy priest

  • Posted by: robin - Nov. 13, 2006 10:27 AM ET USA

    Tridentine and all its sacredness needs to return to our church. As I sit in Mass Sundays I see all sorts of disrespectful behavior included but limited to parents allowing a child of 7 or 8 to play video games! I teach 3 rdgrade CCD so I see the need for return - the books the diocese requires the children use teach nothing- this is why so many learn nothing. Things need to change and Pope Benedict XVI is just the one to do it. Pray for this brave servant of Chirst!

  • Posted by: Aussie - Nov. 12, 2006 8:29 PM ET USA

    Centurion, I understand why you say... "Just challenge the French bishops and they will surrender." But sadly I don't agree. The bishops will only surrender when the truth, doctrinal & moral orthodoxy, and the souls of the flock entrusted to their care are at stake. When it comes to allowing a more widespread use of the Tridentine liturgy, latin and chant, then they will fight to the last drop of their blood to see that it never happens.

  • Posted by: DrJazz - Nov. 12, 2006 7:25 PM ET USA

    I am under the impression that "Sound Off" comments are to be about the subject at hand, and not addressed to other commenters. I had no intention of "attributing the characteristics of democracy to the Church." Perhaps "mandate" is not the best word choice, but the Vatican II documents do state that "pride of place" should be given to chant, and that composers should be encouraged to adapt and/or compose chant in the vernacular. I'd like to see someone engage Tucker's argument.

  • Posted by: - Nov. 12, 2006 3:31 PM ET USA

    Just challenge the French bishops and they will surrender.

  • Posted by: - Nov. 12, 2006 3:30 PM ET USA

    Vox populi ? I think many bishops think they spoeak for the people because those bishops think the people will think what they tell them to think. Even worse some bishops think they speak for God and demand that the people conform to their orders even though other bishops do not speak the same. Thus we have God speaking in different messaages. Not likely. Simply, bishops, follow the lead of the one bishop who speaks for God through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Pope.

  • Posted by: - Nov. 12, 2006 1:01 PM ET USA

    Dr. Jazz, I may be wrong, but I doubt that VC II mandated anything nor did it define any doctrines or anathemas. To attribute doctrinal pronouncements to it would seem to be an error. Perhaps the problem lies in attributing the characteristics of democracy to the Church.

  • Posted by: DrJazz - Nov. 12, 2006 9:04 AM ET USA

    It seems to me that many folks aren't getting it. Follow the logic: The Novus Ordo was not envisioned solely in the vernacular. Nor did VC II mandate that chant be scrapped, but rather that it should be given "primacy of place." The Council documents specifically state that composers should adapt chant to the vernacular and/or compose new chants in the vernacular. The poll is right on. The people want Latin and chant, but not necessarily a return to the Tridentine rite. Read VC II texts!

  • Posted by: - Nov. 12, 2006 7:23 AM ET USA

    It seems a bit chancy to predicate the divine liturgy on an opinion poll in France. If we choose to go down that non-hierarchal trail perhaps each country could choose its own approach to the Mass since to do so would create diversity and far more opportunities for dialogue. Tucker offers only nonsense since the issues are far deeper than a French opinion poll.

  • Posted by: DrJazz - Nov. 11, 2006 9:14 PM ET USA

    I agree; I think he's right. The Novus Ordo, faithfully prayed in Latin with chant, or in the vernacular with chant, would be wonderful. And yes, for us Anglophones, I mean "English" chant, just like the Council Fathers asked us to compose. The example I know of is "By Flowing Waters." There may be others, perhaps better, I don't know. But I'd love to attend it, hear it, sing it. Educate the priests (at gunpoint, if necessary!) so we can hear and pray as the Council asked!

  • Posted by: - Nov. 11, 2006 7:56 PM ET USA

    Frankly, the results are puzzling as given. How can 60% of respondents say they'd like to go to Mass which is in Latin and uses chant, but only 6% say they'd attend a Mass in its "Traditional form"? I'll bet something got lost in translation and "Traditional form", in French, carries bad connotations. Poorly constructed (or slyly constructed) polls can give results that only the people who paid for them can understand.

  • Posted by: - Nov. 11, 2006 6:44 PM ET USA

    I agree. I believe BXVI's wish in granting a universal indult for the TLM is to that it will inform and "set right" the Mass of PVI. If both are allowed to co-exist into the future, it can only mean good things for both.

  • Posted by: - Nov. 11, 2006 12:37 PM ET USA

    that when a priest says the Tridentine Latin Mass, he and everyone knows "He's talking to Almighty God...where in the New Mass, you're talking to your neighbor." -- from the comments section of NLm blog. Its a keeper, Uncle Di.

  • Posted by: - Nov. 11, 2006 12:33 PM ET USA

    Tucker is exactly right. Unfortunately behind the Iron Curtain (Canada) too many members of the episcopate don't tell the faithful (what's left of them) what Rome wants because its completely at odds with the coco-puff catechetical head fakes that we've been snacking on for 40 years or so now. Restore TLM? Sure. And the National Bishops Conferences are exposed as the Potemkin Village they really are.